Image

Competition end fired phase array Antenna's

Need some help or advice on how to set up a mobile. This is the place to ask.

Moderator: JR Moderator

User avatar
HOUND DOG
Donor
Donor
Posts: 415
Joined: Tuesday, 17 April 2007, 18:29 PM

Competition end fired phase array Antenna's

Post by HOUND DOG » Monday, 03 July 2017, 5:31 AM

Ok, HELP- Im confused: For fun I have been researching basic info of how to create a phased array mobile beam but keep finding two different answers! On a two antenna(6ft apart)"end fired system" some say to run the amp coax to the back antenna first and then from there add the 6ft of coax to the front antenna for forward gain(Sounds most logical) But now I was sent some info from overseas that says to feed the front antenna first and run the extra 6ft length of coax to the back antenna for forward gain! Can someone "who knows" please clear this up for me? I HATE not knowing this. :pale:
Thanks
*In a Galaxy far far away*




User avatar
MDYoungblood
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7173
Joined: Saturday, 12 June 2010, 19:05 PM
Logged in via: iPhone
Radio: Uniden Washington
Antenna: Avanti Sigma II
Name: Greg
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Competition end fired phase array Antenna's

Post by MDYoungblood » Tuesday, 04 July 2017, 7:57 AM

Actually back in the day Antenna Specialist had a phased antenna system that worked quite well, now a days you will see that long Suburbans with 2 alike antennas on the roof. The separation between the 2 is set by the velocity factor of the coax so it might be more or less 6ft. and also the length of coax to the second antenna. Choosing direction, the front of the vehicle, the antenna toward the front is the forward direction with the phased antenna at the rear. Amateur operators have done this setup and you'll have to look through the internet to find the formulas they used to get the correct measurements. Hope this helped.
I've read and have been told this is snake oil, a placebo, and just doesn't work, but there are a lot of vehicles here in Baltimore that get out.

3's

Greg
ImageImageImage


"321, the Middle of Maryland"

23 AM "WORLD Image WIDE" 38 LSB

Strong Supporter of America's Original Homeland Security Act
The Second Amendment


Base
Uniden Washington
Mobile
Texas Ranger TR-696FD1C
Handheld
Maxon HCB-40WX
Antennas
Avanti Sigma II
Homemade Full Wave Loop
Homemade 1/2 wave Dipole
Hustler 102" SS Whip and Hustler Ball Mount

Official Moderator - CBRT Complaint Department



User avatar
HOUND DOG
Donor
Donor
Posts: 415
Joined: Tuesday, 17 April 2007, 18:29 PM

Re: Competition end fired phase array Antenna's

Post by HOUND DOG » Thursday, 06 July 2017, 20:17 PM

sorry but still confused. So to obtain forward gain which antenna gets the longer coax? would I feed the rear antenna first with 50 ohm coax then "T" off of it with a 6ft length to feed the front with 50 ohm coax or do I feed the front antenna first and "T" off of it to the rear??? ....(OR) does each antenna need to be fed with 75 ohm RG59 coax like a co-phase(One 6ft & one 12ft) and then both of those connected to a third length of RG8 50 ohm coax to the radio?... Thanks:-)
*In a Galaxy far far away*



User avatar
MDYoungblood
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7173
Joined: Saturday, 12 June 2010, 19:05 PM
Logged in via: iPhone
Radio: Uniden Washington
Antenna: Avanti Sigma II
Name: Greg
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Competition end fired phase array Antenna's

Post by MDYoungblood » Friday, 07 July 2017, 6:14 AM

If you are using the "T", the coax goes to the front antenna first for gain to the front of the vehicle, if using a co-phase harness the shorter coax would go to the front antenna. I've never done this but know a couple locals that have and they use the staggered co-phase harness on their setup, makes adjusting the SWR easier. Now it is not just a plug and play setup, there is a lot of math involved to the phased arrays, spacing is important as well as the coax lengths, you keep saying "6ft" but that might not be the magic measurement. Also the antennas being used contributes in the calculations.

3's

Greg
ImageImageImage


"321, the Middle of Maryland"

23 AM "WORLD Image WIDE" 38 LSB

Strong Supporter of America's Original Homeland Security Act
The Second Amendment


Base
Uniden Washington
Mobile
Texas Ranger TR-696FD1C
Handheld
Maxon HCB-40WX
Antennas
Avanti Sigma II
Homemade Full Wave Loop
Homemade 1/2 wave Dipole
Hustler 102" SS Whip and Hustler Ball Mount

Official Moderator - CBRT Complaint Department



User avatar
HOUND DOG
Donor
Donor
Posts: 415
Joined: Tuesday, 17 April 2007, 18:29 PM

Re: Competition end fired phase array Antenna's

Post by HOUND DOG » Friday, 07 July 2017, 13:45 PM

ext/dmzx/imageupload/files/aea4dae91405 ... 8b591e.png

Ok Thank you:-) There was this other pic i found on here that showed just the opposite. That's why I was confused.
*In a Galaxy far far away*




User avatar
MDYoungblood
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7173
Joined: Saturday, 12 June 2010, 19:05 PM
Logged in via: iPhone
Radio: Uniden Washington
Antenna: Avanti Sigma II
Name: Greg
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Competition end fired phase array Antenna's

Post by MDYoungblood » Friday, 07 July 2017, 14:32 PM

Good pic but I actually think it is backward. The theory (and I'm not a theorist by no means) is the first antenna emits the signal using the second antenna as a reflector, like in a 2 element beam, then a split nano second later (caused by the difference in length of coax) the signal is emitted by the second antenna using the first antenna as a director causing a very tight lobe in the forward direction. If I'm wrong it wouldn't be hard to check with a field strength meter.
I believe it works, I talk to a local while in his Suburban and if he make a 90° turn, I've lost him.

3's

Greg
ImageImageImage


"321, the Middle of Maryland"

23 AM "WORLD Image WIDE" 38 LSB

Strong Supporter of America's Original Homeland Security Act
The Second Amendment


Base
Uniden Washington
Mobile
Texas Ranger TR-696FD1C
Handheld
Maxon HCB-40WX
Antennas
Avanti Sigma II
Homemade Full Wave Loop
Homemade 1/2 wave Dipole
Hustler 102" SS Whip and Hustler Ball Mount

Official Moderator - CBRT Complaint Department



User avatar
Tony365
NEW DUCK
NEW DUCK
Posts: 2
Joined: Friday, 14 July 2017, 11:31 AM
Name: Tony

Re: Competition end fired phase array Antenna's

Post by Tony365 » Friday, 14 July 2017, 12:14 PM

Check this out:

55 Antenna Magic

Reprinted with '55's permission

The basis for a good antenna system is a good ground, a good feedline, and sufficient ground plane.

Two antenna systems does not require much planning, but if you are going to extend the system for shootout, then you need to map the system out before you start. The following text assumes previous antenna experience. The reflector antenna in all of the described systems will be grounded through a capacitor, although grounding the rear antenna will give close results.

If you are planning on using only 2 antennas, a convenient spacing may be used between the two antennas anywhere from 6 foot to 86 inches. 6 foot will give the most gain for 2 straight sticks but cannot be expanded into a competitive 3,4 or 5 antenna system. 86 inches will give the most gain for 2 coils and can be expanded into any shootout system.

Regardless of spacing, in the 2-antenna system, you want some ground plane area in front of the 'HOT' antenna. Placement of the rear antenna farther back can also help in two ways, It closes the back door more since there is less ground behind the antenna: and it gives the 'HOT' more room in front of it.

To quickly tune 2 antennas, place only one antenna in the 'HOT' position. Tune it for the lowest reflect. Next move this antenna to the rear. Put the second antenna in the 'HOT' position and start with it 5 inches shorter than the first one ended up at. Tune until the lowest reflect is reached. Very little fine-tuning of the rear antenna may be necessary. If the antennas don't tune very quickly in this manner, then the antennas may not be resonant and other antennas should be tried.

The performance of the two-antenna system can be compared to a single antenna by changing from one system to the other. A station a few miles away can give the results for both receive and transmit. Another test with the two antennas is to transmit to the other station while turning your truck around. The station should report a large change in signal from the point at which you were facing the station, and the point at which you were facing away.

Another test that you can perform alone is to use a field strength meter and walk around the truck while your radio is keyed. Keep the same distance from the 'HOT' antenna as you walk around the truck and you should get a good idea of the shape of your radiating pattern.

Adding a third antenna requires bracket fabrication and usually is part of an expansion to four antennas. The bracket is usually made of 4 inch C-channel. It is grounded to the roof at the mounting point closes to the 'Hot' antenna, and is isolated by the insulators closest to the windshield. The insulators also serve as leveling adjustments. The antenna mount on the third bracket is isolated for RF. It should also be movable so the mount can be moved forward and backward on the bracket. The proper distance for the third antenna varies with the vehicle ground plane. Recommended values are from 40 to 50 inches.

The length of the antenna will also vary with systems. It should not be longer than the 'Hot' antenna, and not shorter than 6 inches below the 'Hot' antenna. NOTE: when changing from a 3 antenna to a 4-antenna system, the third antenna will have to be adjusted both ways (height and distance), as you are adjusting number 4. The 3-antenna system does not show a large amount of gain on the field strength meter or on a receiving station several miles away. In competition, it provides the antenna system with more "Push Away" power when keying next to another truck.

The four-antenna system can be very different from one truck to another. The two basic types of brackets make the systems very different. One bracket system extends the bracket from the roof out to accept a fourth antenna about six feet from the number 3 antenna. The antenna mount is insulated and the antenna ends up pretty close to the same length as the third. The bracket is grounded at both ends. The other bracket system mounts on the front bumper and extends out a distance that changes with hood length and grill material type. Some grills are made of plastic and some are metal so the capacitance changes. If the bracket is metal, two choices of mounting are isolated and grounded. In the grounded system, the fourth antenna is very short, around 90 inches. In the Isolated mount, the antenna is much longer, 140 inches or more. If the bracket material is PVC, then you have an isolated system with a longer antenna, around 140 inches or more. Both antenna systems work well but to decide which will work on your vehicle, you must spend some time tuning antennas and measuring gain. Keep notes on changes that you have made so you can find the best gain for your system and can revert back if things change to the bad. Good luck, and happy tuning.

The above paper was taken from '55's website a few years ago and I have taken the time to pass it along. As stated above this has been reproduced with 55's knowledge and permission.

Thanks,

Skater 229


Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests